Introduction by: Angel Vivaldi
Interview by: Laura DeSantis-Olsson and various media outlets
Humans are one of the most complex beings on our planet. From our most basic survival instincts to the intricate weavings of society, we as human beings have made tremendous progress. It’s almost inconceivable how we’ve managed to make so many advancements as a civilized species yet continue to discriminate and alienate our fellow man for being born differently.
Homophobia is a deep lack of understanding by choice. Being homosexual is not a learned behavior, unlike discrimination which undoubtedly is. It’s such an insignificant portion of someone’s character that it’s almost strange to have any sort of opinion on it. It’s not something that warrants an opinion! There’s more to us; we volunteer, we look for cures to diseases, we serve our country and some of us touch people with our music & art.
With 19 states legalizing gay marriage, we’re well on our way but not nearly fast enough. Everyone deserves to love without boundaries and to express that love freely with our life mates. Being alive right here & right now is a privilege that each of us should be entitled to embrace fully. We should never take that privilege away from someone… because what is living without love?
How do you think the LBGT community have had a huge impact in the music industry?
Gerrick: “I think it’s taking a little bit more time then I would have liked for the effects to really be seen. I think we’re seeing it now with artists like Mary, with artists like Sam Smith; Frank Ocean had this huge moment. At the time, two years ago, I thought that was going go break a lot of barriers. However, from where I was coming from, mostly the pop and urbane-pop space, that’s still very much a scene where you can’t really be out. I meet artists on a regular basis who hide. It’s something that I still battle with when I see people socially, and then it’s a different thing from how they are professionally. So, I think there’s still a lot of work to be done. However, I just think at the moment it is really huge, and I’d just like to see more of it honestly.
How long did you wait before you openly came out about your sexuality and said this is me, this is who I am?
Gerrick: “I came in comfortable and I think. Maybe it’s because, as a writer, I don’t necessarily feel like it’s that important. Now, I will say, I have been in plenty of circumstances where I have felt a little uncomfortable. That’s just because when you are coving so many huge stars, weather it be hip-hop or something like that, you know a lot of times maybe a joke is made or a comment is said off hand. Sometimes it ruffles your feathers. So, I’ve had a rapper or two be uncomfortable in my space. However, again, I’m not walking into an interview hitting on you, so there’s really no need for that. I just think that sometimes they might see, sort of an exchange with me and someone else, or the fact that I don’t censor myself. Wherever I go, I don’t believe in that. It’s just not something I’ve ever done, even going back to middle school and it often got me in trouble.”
The times where I’ve been uncomfortable in a situation are few and far between any of the other experiences I’ve ever had in the industry. So, I just know for myself, I’ve always been comfortable. BUT, that being said, I am friends with so many people who are working in this industry who are not comfortable with who they are. There was a time where one artist in particular had a deal, he came to me and we had a casual lunch and he’s just like, “What do I do, because the label won’t let me be out?” I said, “Well, you should do it yourself, I don’t think you should change yourself because you have the deal.” However, I understand those pressures. So, even though we developed sort of a friendship, as a consumer, now knowing their orientation, and then hearing the very sexually explicit music about women, and these are things that I know are not happening, is a little bit uncool. I wasn’t surprised. He finally sent in the message that the deal fell through because he said, “This is not what I wanted to do.” Those moments do happen and I’ve been doing this five years now and I’ve seen it more than once. So it shows you that we’re still sort of really behind from where we need to be.”
In terms of the music industry, were you always comfortable being “out” within the industry, or did it come in time?
Mary: “I was seventeen when I came “out”. I started writing music when I was about nine. For me, I was never thinking about the business of music at that time when I was creating. When I came out, when I was seventeen, there was just no question. It was never a question that I was going to hide. I’ve always been really outspoken and sure of myself and when I came out I was like, “Oh cool, everything makes sense now.” Since things started really snowballing for me, in terms of my career, I’ve only been rewarded for being honest. However, I know that that’s not the case for a lot of people. I know that I’m biased because every time I walk into a room I’m not only accepted for being gay, I’m encouraged.”
“I had kind of a dose of reality when I was touring the midwest with Gavin DeGraw, about a mouth ago. I was on tour for five weeks, and it was a different experience then I was used to. You know, I was used to just going on stage with Macklemore and having six thousand people cheer my name, and know who I am, and be excited, and sing my words, even accept me for being gay. Then here I am, in the middle of Iowa on the is tour, and people were crossing their arms and shake their heads when I mentioned being gay. I never felt that people were homophobic, I just wasn’t connecting the way that I wanted to, or the way I had grown accustomed to and been spoiled by.”
Do you think it’s harder for men in the music business to come out that women? Is it more acceptable for women?
Gerrick: “I’m probably going to make some enemies with this answer…. haha.”
“I think it is far tougher for men because it’s not fetishized. Two women together, according to a lot of straight males, is a fantasy for them. They only see it as something they can enjoy as a voyeur. However, two men, that grosses people out, haha. You know, so it’s really strange to see how it’s treated, and it is a bigger deal. I can remember with Ricky Martin or Lance Bass and there were all the statements like, “Oh my god!” That’s just seems unfair. Here they are, two huge stars, and they had do wait so long because they were not comfortable. If they were comfortable, if they were in an environment where it was accepted, it would have happened a long time ago. So, I just think that it is so much harder for guys.”
There was a story recently about, and I’m forgetting the artist’s name, he’s a country singer, who came out a couple years ago and he’s now repurposed himself. He is now singing about women, and he’s not “out”. It’s getting a lot of buzz. This is a guy who was always out, always at the clubs, always partying, he was always seen with guys. Then, for whatever reason the music didn’t connect he’s now trying it again, but as a straight male. So, I think because a lot of those pressures, if you’re a guy, you can’t really embrace it. We can even go back to Ocean’s big moment, I mean that was a huge moment, but have you seen him with a guy out? Have you seen any stories about him dating a male? You don’t see anything. His moment happened, and then it sort of, kind of passed. So, it just shows you we’re not really accepting two men together.”
I wanted to touch upon something you (Gerrick) said before about having a moment with Mary and with Sam Smith…. Sam Smith, for instance, there was no secret that he was gay, from the time he really sort of came on the scene largely in the last year. How do you think that has affected his place in music? Negatively or positively?
Gerrick: “I don’t think there has been any negative impact. I want to touch on this though. It stuck out to me the most, when the video for “Leave Your Lover” came out. It really didn’t take any sort of rocket science to see what it was about and where he stood. Then you’ll still get these headlines the same day, or the next day, that say, “Oh, Sam Smith is out now.” Then there’s me going, “He was never in the closet.” So, theses moments are what I always, really have a tough time with. I had a twitter exchange with somebody who said, “I don’t think he was ever in the closet.” Then they said, “Well he never spoke about his sexuality.” Ok, but for a person who has openly said that they have never been in a relationship, and he’s only had this hart break or he’s had this longing of somebody, I don’t think they need to have this whole dialogue about their sexuality if that’s not really the important part. He’s not hiding it in his music, it’s not veiled. They said, “I had a struggle with the head lines and things, and now he’s coming out.” And, I’m like, “But he was never in the closet and he’s always open if anybody had asked him, he would tell you.” I had a difficult time the year before, he blew up. I can remember telling him, I said, “You know, a lot of this music reminds me of a breakup that I had with a guy.” He agreed on it and we had this nice exchange. Now, I did’t want to write this whole thing about that because that was me having a personal moment with him.
So, I remember one person came to me and said, “Well, you didn’t put that you had this exchange with him.” I said, “I didn’t feel it was appropriate because it was a personal moment.” I wasn’t really writing about that, I was writing about the fact that he’s blowing up and the next year people will be talking about him. That’s what I was writing about.
Hopefully that gives you some sort of an answer. I think it’s only positive, but I just thought it was really strange to get the reaction of, “Oh he came out because of his video,” and that just wasn’t the case.
We’ve been talking a lot about kind of bring up the LGBT community in the music scene and people hiding. And, I’m interested in your thoughts about Maclemore, because he kind of began this movement of people talking about it a little bit more. I’m just interested if you have any thoughts on how he did it. I mean, how come it’s a little bit easier to talk about it, when he’s singing about it? Did the fact that you are both from Seattle help in working together and speeding a message? Just curious.
Mary: “I think it’s interesting, the fact that it happened now. I think people, especially in the music industry, have been wanting to talk about it, and it has been at the forefront of a lot of people’s minds. But, I think it did take a straight, white, male to talk about gay rights and have the command for people to notice. It’s unfortunate that it had to be from a straight white male. In my opinion, I think it would have been so much cooler if someone in the gay community to have that command. However, I think that allies are the most important part of ending homophobia. It gives visibility and allyship to have someone, especially in the rap world, speak up about it, devote his time to it, and make it part of his issue is incredible. I think it was life changing for a lot of people. On the other end of it, I’m on the song, but it also was an open door for me as a gay artist.
“I mean Seattle is super “peacey” and I was never ever scared for a minute to hold hands with any of the women I dated in Seattle, ever…. as it should be.”
Maclemore & Mary Lambert – “Same Love”
You have a new album coming out this fall correct? How did the success of “Same Love” with Maclemore play into the creation of the album? Was there something in your mind that directed you in the new album? Generally, what can we expect from that album?
Mary: “Yeah, I think the album really solidifies the idea that I really want to impact the world through music, and that it’s possible to change the world. That’s a really addictive feeling. The fact that I spent two hours in a vocal booth, and two years later I was singing with Modonna at the Grammy’s, or hearing thousands and thousands and thousands of people sing it back to me at a concert, that’s life changing. That’s an impact. “How can I keep recreating that,” is what I asked myself when I made the record. I had goals when I made the record and that was one of them. Making sure that I’m really conscious of what the intention is of what I’m creating, and knowing it has a conscience and a purpose. While there’s never going to be another “Same Love” in my life, at least for something that I make, I have to honor that space and let that be, you know. I don’t want to continue to go back to the chorus or try to recreate it, when it doesn’t need to be. There’s other things that I want to talk about and there’s other things that need that kind of energy.”
“In general, it’s a record of my journey over the past year. We wrote the album as we were recording, so all the material that you’re going to hear on the record has all been written within the last nine months.”
I spoke with you a few months ago about women giving you fan mail saying “thank you” for kind of being the push for them to come out after “Same Love” came out. Do you still get fan mail like that? Also, how does that make you feel personally and does that serve as inspiration to keep going?
Mary: “Yes, I still get mail about it. It’s probable less so now because the song’s been out for a while and the surge of it has now pass and there’s other things to be talked about to for a lot of different people. The fact that I’ve been able to provide an impact for people is the propelling factor of what I do. I have a really hard time creating music that’s just about ego or, “Look at me.” I want a motivation behind what I say. I want there to be an intention and a purpose behind each song, and to be really conscious of how I affect somebody. I think it’s really scary to think that our words don’t mean something, especially when you’re on a platform where your song’s on the radio and it’s potentially impacting twenty million people at a time. You have an opportunity to do something really incredible. I think that chance is just passed up so often. It’s not to say that all art has to be socially conscious or life changing but I don’t know if there’s enough of that right now. While the mail is really important and the response from fans is so beautiful and constantly moving, I have to remember that I’m not responsible for someone else’s healing. I think it’s easy to get this savior complex, where your like, “Yea, good job Mary, you helped all these people come out.” When, really, I’m just a catalyst and that’s what’s important to remember, because you if take that good then you also have to take the bad. You’ll have to take the people that are like, “Well, you haven’t responded to my tweet, so I hate myself now,” or something crazy, you know. If your taking the good you also have to take the bad.
I’m not responsible for any of that, but I am so happy to be a catalyst for someone else’s feelings. Absolutely.
Mary Lambert – “She Keeps Me Warm”
I’m the inverse of your age, I am 52, and it’s amazing to me that a woman so young, truly, is so wise beyond her years. I just want to thank you for that. We really do a number on ourselves emotionally don’t we? You, in all of your wisdom, and it seems you sing about these things and I can write about these things and then to be like, “Oh I’m so positive now.” Do you ever still do a number on yourself? When and how do you handle it?
Mary: “Well, I think I don’t know if anybody’s ever going to be one hundred percent satisfied with themselves. If they are, hats off to them, but I can’t say that for myself. I still wake up and have bad body days or look sort of longingly at a woman in a magazine, where I’m like, “Wow, I wish I could look like that.” Or, “I’m never going to look like that.” It can be depressing and you start to calibrate your self worth upon this ideal that’s not real. I think that’s what I want to dismantle in my work, is that in our culture, we’re constantly having a personal calibration based on a false idea of what is good. The only reason I say that is because, and I touched upon this at my Grammy performance… I had just finished shooting my music video for “Secrets” and I was talking with the music video director, and we started talking about post editing and body editing specifically. I thought what an interesting word, “body-editing”. He said that most of his clients spend up to $40,000.00 to have parts of their bodies altered, weather it be having their chin shaped down, or having a bigger butt, or bigger boobs, or a six-pack. They add this in digitally. I was so shocked, I couldn’t believe it. It infuriated me. No wonder we’re in this culture of people that feel disconnected from each other. If this is the ideal that we’re constantly looking towards, and it’s not real, no wonder people feel shitty all the time. It’s because this “body-editing” is the thing that’s considered good and no one matches it. People that do match it, are killing themselves to do so. It’s beyond me why that is acceptable. Also on the other end of it, the fact that a celebrity or a singer feels the pressure to do that, makes it like, “FUCK, nobody can win!” How do we stop this?”
“I just never wanted to get in the middle of that. I went through it in middle school, where I was like, “I’m just going to start starving myself and I’m going to see how far I can get.” I would go like half a day and I would be like, “No, I want gummy bears.” I just couldn’t starve myself, I really tried… (laughs) So, I wake up and I still feel that way sometimes. The only way I really combat it is to perform my piece, “Body Love”, every night. It’s a part of my artistic identity. It does something really incredible when I perform that poem and it’s the only reason I’m as comfortable in my skin as I am. This poem has become my Montra, and I must perform this poem about five times a week. I have to repeat these things over and over about how much I love my body, even if I wake up and feel that my body sucks.”
Mary Lambert – “Body Love”
I know about a year ago, you performed at a local camp, a rock camp for girls. I’m one of their volunteers. I was just curious, how did that feel, what impact did that have on you, playing your music for those young girls?
Mary: “It’s a mix of things. There’s some things that go over that age groups head. It’s weird the affect that it has on me when I don’t feel like I’m begin listed to. I’m putting so much emotional output into the world when I perform that if I see someone talking to their friend or not paying attention, it hurts me and I take it personally. That’s one of the things I have to work on. So when you’re performing to a room of six year olds, your going to get that. You can’t expect a six year old is going to listen to “Body Love” and be like, “Oh I get it!”
“I’m trying to strike a balance, especially when I perform for kids. “Secrets” is such and inviting song and good to play in front of kids, but it still mentions that I have bipolar disorder, so there’s still things that are going to go over kids heads. I observe myself afterwards and I kind of have to work on it. I had a panic attack the other day because of an atmosphere like that, where I was in front of kids, because I felt like the kids were making fun of me. It was a very strange thing that was happening in my head.”
“Overall, when I feel that my music is impacting somebody I feel like I’m winning. I feel really good about that. You can’t always tell with kids. Even if their running around, talking with their friends, or playing a PSP, it’s still very possible that I made an impact. But, It’s harder to see.”
Mary Lambert – “Secrets”
Gerrick, in this day and age, why are we still dividing these these things like gender and race, that are age old and we should have solved our differences over already? Why are we still putting emphasis on sexual orientation, race, etc.?
Gerrick: “That is such a good question and…. I don’t know. I really don’t even think there’s an actual answer to it. There’s some days when I wake up and I think, “Ok, maybe by the time I choose to have kids this won’t even matter.” Then there’s other days when I read something, or a reader has sent me a very nasty comment because they looked me up on Facebook, or they’ve done some digging, and I’m like, “Ok, well maybe not.”
I just think part of it, is that now there has to be “something”. If we accepted everything about people, then there would not be something for terrible people to pic apart. It’s going to be race, it’s going to be orientation, there’s going to be something. I don’t want to say that I accept it, but there are days when it’s easier for me to look at some of the comments or some of the things that are said and not give any of my emotions. Other days, it’s it’s not so easy. I guess that’s my answer to it.”
Because both of you were included in the 40 under 40, and you’re on the young side of the under 40’s, where do each of you see yourselves when your 40 years old and beyond? To me you both seem so wise for your ages that I’m just interested to see where you see yourselves going?
Mary: “We’re going to be Monks”
Gerrick: “Honestly, I just want to keep telling great stories. I don’t know if it’s me doing it in the classroom, doing it on T.V., or doing it on the radio, I just want to continue to tell great stories. That’s what I continue to see myself doing and championing great music and great talent before you hear them.
Mary: “I’m kind of putting the work in now because I want to have kids. I have this incessant need to have children, and I met the woman of my dreams this year. So, it’s been on my mind and in my body to want children. I have two major things to accomplish in this life and I’m already at work on one of them. At that time, at age 40, I would have like to make a really tangible impact and legacy through music. Then, hopefully at that time, taking it very easy, and occasionally doing shows, and having my children and my beautiful wife.”
Gerrick: “I’m still swooning over, “the woman of your dreams,” that just made my day.”